104 replies ·
posted May 15, 2020 1:05pm
Progress, Questions, and Comments for Loader Arms on the DOG 434E Backhoe Loader posted here:
So I think that I finally figured out what the RED Beam-like thingy is on the side of the Left Hydraulic for the loader arm.I believe it is a safety brace for the arms to keep them elevated (RED items are typically used for safety LOTO, also known as Lock-Out-Tag-Out). It is typically stowed and not in use. The only thing I don't get is how it braces the Hydraulics in this particular assembly haha. They would have to extend and then the brace locks the hydraulics in place so you can work on the loader arm assembly safely.
Safety brace on similar engine.
Any thoughts for the Pound?
I have seen similar thing on a hydraulic lift where I used to work.
I would say your right as a safety feature and I'm pretty sure in the position as it is, in the image the hydraulic piston cant retract. For maintenance on the hydraulics, top up fluid, replace hoses etc. As for this occasion probably just posing for the photo I would suggest.
I think the safety pin I have circled is in that position to stop it lifting from this lock position (as in lock the piston).
When in normal use the pin would be removed and placed in hole 1 and through hole 2 which lifts it above the piston cylinder whiche frees the movement of the piston.
I hope I have explained it ok.
Our Dog looks a bit different.
On ours the whole thing is probably detached and placed over the piston. because it attached to the bucket piston not the arm. where the pin is in the top circle there is what looks like a bracket and another where the lower circle is, cant really see but there is probably something at the top as well.
Done some digging and found this in the treasure trove:
The top bracket has the pin trough the hole as before, and the bottom must be hooked on somehow.
Check this out https://youtu.be/4p9cgqS_UjY?t=170
The brackets may look something like this but different, this is the closest I could find:
Take a look at this at around 2:00 minutes a good view of how the front bracket looks and the safety brace slides on to it.
@Adrian that is great! I didn't know you could share a video time stamp. It was super helpful. Yeah a close up of the image from that video looks a lot better. I was trying to see more close-ups but after an hour of looking I was willing to ask if someone could find better haha.I agree now. This totally removes. I found this video (crappy quality but it totally describes the function on a different model Backhoe Loader but it is the same design of brace: Safety Brace Installation
Okay next question. What the heck does this thing do? I see it on quite a few of the backhoe loaders but I haven't been able to pull up much other info on it. It is on the opposite upper hydraulic.
Whatda Heck Isit??? (as my boy would say)
Here's another angle:
From what I can find it's a "Kickout and Positioner"
From what I read it's a magnetic switch thing, something to do with electronic control of the positioning of the bucket.
Oh, that's right! This backhoe loader I think has smart positioning system! There are some options on the console to help it find "home" for the operator so he doesn't have to manually get back to a normal position on his own. This is probably that sensor. That is probably just a protective plate and guide for the electric cable that goes to the sensor!Nicely done adrian2301
Okay this is an issue I am not sure how to resolve. Notice that the loader arms can fully extend and retract in this video: (timestamp 0:44 through 1:12)https://youtu.be/xwDlTIblhyc?t=44
I am having trouble getting my angle bracket to replicate this.....Angle Bracket in Red.
And here's another view with the loader arms from a different side:View from above
And a view with Loader Arms Raised:Loader Arms Raised
Not sure how to make that part not chop up......Any ideas theluthier or from the Pound?
Hmm this is a head-scratcher. I tend to agree with Adrian that the bent bracked must not be as crooked as it currently is. In fact the pictures and video make me think it might be straight with slightly curved edge contour:
However I'm having trouble make sense of the surrounding pieces. Is it possible that the upper and lower arms (yellow) aren't directly on top of each other but slightly off-center to make room for the bent bracket to be straight?
I can't see what is going on here! Compare:
Looks like a magic trick...
That top piece is directly over the loader arm I am pretty darn sure. They may be separated a little more perhaps and the angle bracket is definitely not that curve and actually sits over to the side more (see Adrian's posts below).The upper hydraulic does sit dead center above the main loader arm and should connect to the top pieces roughly dead center as well.
I agree @spikeyxxx. Looked like magic and has me scratching my head haha.
That connecting part just disappears!
Maybe we can ask Wayne to hide it when it closes. that would solve the problem. LOL
Maybe that whole video is CG...I'd be impressed, but it would explain a lot;)
I think this diagram supports the brackets being straight somehow:
Meaning that the shape is straight (not bent) with strange wobble in the edge contour. Very puzzling...
Although it looked like this to me:
It's probably more like this:
(Sorry, drawing made with mouse....)
As seen in theluthier 's pictures.
I took a look into my special access and was able to find the removal and installation of the top piece. While I can't explain everything I can explain that the angle bracket is indeed straight. and has a unique flat shape. I'll flatten the piece and move it over to the side like since it is indeed not centered in between the two top pieces. I'll see if that helps.
It also sits on the outside of the main loader arm.
It's so cool you have special access, I'm not sure what you would have done without it.
From theluthier 's image above:
A.. This shows the top arm(s) are attached to the bucket either side of the one longer piece of the bucket, and the lower arm attached between both the longer and shorter parts. Which suggest they are not perfectly aligned as first thought and off towards the inner side of the lower arm.
It also sits on the outside of the main loader arm
Sorry to throw another spanner in the works. This suggests it's on the inside.... Which would make sense if the top arm is more to the inner side of the lower arm.
A basic version of what it looks like to me:
I don't envy you blanchsb , these loader arms are more complex than any of us could of imagined.
I had a look, here's what I think.
1a. At first glance I thought there was a spacer here but Looking closer at this angle I thought I could see the hole is misaligned and a zoomed view at 1b. shows these parts of the arm are either side of the one larger piece on the bucket.
2. Not sure why I highlighted this now. I think the part shown in red on your demo's is not as bent as you have it. I'm sure from another view this part is not centred between the top part but set more to one side. I cant find the image I saw it on.
3. This hole bracket thing is protruding into the piston. This is the only image I have seen it on, not sure what I does or it's relevance, maybe where the pin goes when the safety brace is in use. Not sure if you got it set on top but looks like it should be to the side more but not really sure.
This image shows the RED part to the side with a spacer the other.
I know it is not showing the whole part but the process of thought says to me its the next part down the arm from the piston.
So looking now with that over slightly and attached to just one part of the bucket should solve that problem.
As I look at this image more, that position sensor thing looks like its attached with basic square metal tube. Seems out of place on this Dog.
Found this Image of a Top view, not sure if it was you, I'll post it the pound if not.
Is it my eyes or do the arms get wider towards the bucket?
The site where I found it says 434E but the obvious difference is the wheel size at the front.
adrian2301 that is a different loader arm, that may be the older model 434E or not even our Dog. I can rotate my whole assembly just a hairif the team decides we need to do that.
You could be right says 434E but could well be an older model.
Oh man. I think I struck Gold!. I got a top view of the loader arms from this youtube video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_fUWpLE0Ho that really helps sell what is going on with the top pieces. From this image they are indeed pushed over to the side a little more. Which means the upper hydraulic seems to angle towards the center so that the non-Angled-bracket can sit on the one side of the loader arm. I also get a good idea of what that piece looks like from this view.
Found another video and I am convinced the hydraulics are shoved over a lot: When he gets inside the cab you can definitely tell: (at the end of the video): https://youtu.be/lK5J_Hg3vMk?t=162
Hmmm I dunno man..I'm comparing these photos to our others, and the model. I gotta say I'm not entirely convinced the hydraulic is angled from the loader arm. Mainly because the loader arm has a curved top edge that makes a slight angle hard to determine. Also the perspective camera angle is highly suspect for judging things like this.
I suppose the reason I'm replying is to push back if you're thinking to make major changes. Maybe they're not that major in which case sure, give it a try and see it if works better.
My money would be on them oriented straight from above though. That's just my 2¢
Does an angled hydraulic solve another issue you've run into?
theluthier this is a better still from the video: Red lines are the hydraulic angle, and the blue is the main loader arm. Notice how the hydraulic is shoved over to one side on it's rotating pin?
The main problem is that red shape from earlier: I originally modeled it as an angled bracket but it is indeed straight after referencing a lot of schematics.In order for that red piece (in the gif below) to not interfere it must move left along with it's top connector plates. So there are 2 things that could make this happen
1. The loader arms needs to bend to the right (in the gif below)
or2. the hydraulic needs to point to left (in the gif below).From a mechanical build standpoint it makes more sense for the hydraulic to point left. Plate metal is not easy to bend, not that it isn't possible but it would be easier to point the hydraulic. I need to make some of those plates a little thinner too. They are a little too fat.
Adrian pointed this out that the top connects to a different part of the main bucket than the bottom:So those top plate pieces attaching to the NON-Angled Bracket (red piece in the gif) are definitely inside from where the loader arm attaches.Hopefully I am explaining it.
Here's another cool reference video that shows the good angle: It's doing a snow plow. Notice how the hydraulic is shoved over where it pins (at the bottom of the image ) to make the angle toohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmaLFZJ40JUIt's not a huge angle but I believe it points towards the inside from this reference
I promise I don't mean to be argumentative, but I still think it's the curve of the loader arm causing visual confusion. With perspective involved it could even look like the left loader arm is angled inward:
It's definitely a conundrum trying to determine this without an explicit blueprint / orthographic drawing. BUT in the end, you're the expert when it comes to these parts. Introducing angles in a mechanical model like this can have consequences if it turns out to be wrong. However sense you're already mechanically testing how these parts function, you are the only one qualified to make the final call!
I trust you 100% sir 🤝
Shawn, I think that you had a comment in the main thread about a potential conflict between your loader arm and my engine housing. I think there is, and I am sorry it took me so long to respond. However, I'm also not sure if Kent is using my engine housing or Artifacts.
So perhaps you might want to check with Artifact to see if they have a potential conflict problem or not. I have uploaded my recent version into dropbox so you can view it here:
The hood rotates about it's origin there in the front, so just rotate it about the x axis about 5 degrees and you can see the conflict.
Sorry it took me so long to reply hope I'm not too late to help you out.
Thanks ddoulos4iesou i will take a look after work.
Have you ever worked on something all month and you feel like it looks really similar to when you stsarted? Man I feel that way right now.I did a lot of cleanup on the main loader arm and added a lot of details,; corrected the angle bracket issue, figured out rigging to help with seeing issues with the model, and made some cool rig-helpersthat constrain to only somewhat realistic rotation. But at the end of the day I look back and feel exhausted with little visual progress.Regardless I am happy with it and have uploaded the model.
|Have you ever worked on something all month and you feel like it looks really similar to when you started? [...] little visual progress.
Yep, I can totally relate to that!
Looking great Shawn!
Okay I need some guidance because I want to get this resolution before I continue on, there is going to be a lot more interacting on my assembly after this point: Kent is right to be nervous about this hydraulic and angle bracket issue. I want to make sure I get this right by everyone before I make things more complex.Loader Arms Functionality
I posted the issue in a YouTube video. Can y'all watch it when you get 3 minutes and let me know your opinions?I have already made a decision but I have things parented to empties so going the other route won't be terrible. I explain my decision in the video.I' m going to @ mention the team below just so The Pound can give feedback.ppfbourassa jjakeblended ketre ullreym hellosudeepsingh rryzen7 ddoulos4iesou aartifact adrian2301 spikeyxxx duerer sshanr dostovel aaz93 theluthier Thanks for the feedback and critiques.
I am not sure if I understnd the problem correctly, but I think I agree with Parker ppfbourassa , imagine this in an extreme situation:
When the green hydraulic cylinders are not parallel and extend into the red arrows, what they are connected to (blue) would be squashed..
I'd say they must be parallel...
Like I said, I am not sure if I understand what's going on...
Just found this front view
I agree the arms and pistons need to be parallel to function correctly.
If you look close, zoom to the top arm from the piston to the bucket, to me it looks like a thin piece on one side of the piston.
had another look at other images and they all show as you have it. Maybe as suggested by ppfbourassa the top of the piston slightly closer to the engine, so they are parallel but maybe not exactly above the lower arm. It’s so difficult to see, need an up close and personal look.
adrian2301 yeah that is a different loader arm design, the 430F that I got pictures of uses that. The side pieces mount on both sides for that design and there are two pieces where my "one" red piece would be.
I just watched your youtube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dzom2msSrBwThat's a tough one. Something about the pistons being off-axis seems really wrong to me. Like, would the mechanics still work if they weren't aligned?
Would it work to shift the top connection (closer to the engine) towards the inside so that it would line up again?
It seems like these parts need to be parallel for the same reason the tires need to be parallel. If they are bowed toward each other, rotating them would cause the arms to move closer or further apart, rather then staying the same distance. Right?
Here's another viewpoint where I talked about it with things shifting to be centered like people are suggesting and why that obviously is not going to work. I can try to shift stuff over like ppfbourassa Parker has suggested but man all of the reference that I see these top yellow pieces that hug the red piece are really close together. So I am at a loss of what to do unless I widen the loader arms like in this photoCrap.......I found the issue. The loader arms spread out just like in the picture above...........dun dun dun! I found the loader arm design we are using and it is doing the same thing. I can't post the picture though. We already have this picture in our forum so I don't feel bad posting a higher quality one even though it is not exactly our model. Took a look around in my special access and yup. I did it wrong. That's a bummer. I get to spread that loader arm out now. I'll see if I can fix it tonight and resubmit.
Huh, that's a surprise! But I'm glad you figured it out.
I'll really try to get this working and resubmitted by tonight or tomorrow so that you have something to work with Parker. You've waited long enough for me to mull it over haha. We need to connect that bucket so the magic can start happening.
This is why I kept those parts flexible so far. It looks like my "fins" are still straight, so I'm not exactly sure how that junction will end up working.